American Muscle Cars Australia
Member Chat + Industry News + Tech Talk + General => AMCCA Members Chat Room => Topic started by: Muzzy 66 on November 30, 2009, 08:06:44 PM
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I have been like a few looking at things while the dollar is good...
The base for the engine is an EB Falcon Roller block. $450 AUS
Block cleaned, lined, stroker assembley balanced $300- $400
I have priced from the states.
Stroker kits $1000 - $1300 + 450 freight USD
AFR Heads $1400 + 450 freight USD
Plus my block 450
plus extras??? $ 500
Plus all externals, cam,rollers,rods,leads,gaskets.
Including 1k to have it screwed together if required.
Just shy of 10.5k
Long motor -comprising of Block,stroker assembley,heads.
$7200 + app $1000 freight or $400 - $700 for me to get it to a container.
Plus all the externals and plus oil pump, sump,manifold,carby ,dizzy,coil,leads,gaskets etc.
Plus extras ???? $500
Just over 10.5k
Crate engine -depending on configuration app $10k with $1400 delivery or $400-$700 for me to get it to a container.
Plus extras??? $500
12k total.
Or I can have it all done,with all the below parts
Item QTY Unit Amount
CRS16022-030 Street kit Ford 347 10.2:1 1.00 $1,227.27 $1,227.27
HE2002 Super pan 302w XM-XF (7.5lt) 1.00 $318.18 $318.18
MIL34035 Brass freeze plug set 302-351w 1.00 $16.36 $16.36
SH510S Bearing cam 302-351w (set) 1.00 $23.38 $23.38
M68HV Oil pump Ford 302w hi-volume 1.00 $52.15 $52.15
68S1 Oil screen 302w=M68HV 1.00 $18.59 $18.59
MIL22500 Oil pump shaft Ford 302w (4130 moly) 1.00 $30.28 $30.28
ROLCS3010 Rollmaster 289-351w Premium set 1.00 $101.53 $101.53
PB1060ST Balancer Ford 302-351w street 4 bolt 1.00 $144.67 $144.67
MIL16230 Water Pump 302w alloy hi-volume D/Side 1.00 $142.16 $142.16
ISK381358 Camshaft 302w Solid 3000-7000 240 1.00 $196.26 $196.26
@.050"
ISK382-H Solid lifters Hardenable Iron FORD (16) 1.00 $136.36 $136.36
SHA-S4003 Roller rocker 302w 1.60 3/8 stud (16) 1.00 $396.75 $396.75
FELFS8548PT-16 Gasket set Ford 302w Felpro 1.00 $83.07 $83.07
EDE7521 Rpm air gap Ford 289-302w (4150 carb) 1.00 $518.02 $518.02
MSD8352 Distributor 302w pro billet ready to run 1.00 $681.82 $681.82
MSD8207 Ignition coil blaster SS Ecore 1.00 $71.54 $71.54
MSD31239 Lead set 8.5mm 90 deg Universal (RED) 1.00 $163.64 $163.64
CSR9111C Thermostat housing 302w 1.500" Clear 1.00 $118.18 $118.18
PIOFRA203 Flexplate Ford 289-302w C4 157t 1.00 $93.94 $93.94
ARP554-9501 Bolt kit 302w 12 pt stainless steel 1.00 $340.91 $340.91
AFR1388 Heads SBF 185cc 3/8 CNC ported 58cc 1.00 $1,972.73 $1,972.73
HOL82751 Holley 750 cfm street HP D/Pumper 1.00 $745.45 $745.45
RP3223R Pushrod 302w 6.885 moly-Each 16.00 $8.64 $138.24
Subtotal $7,731.48
G.S.T $773.17
TOTAL PARTS $8,504.65
Plus Block $ 450
Plus clean,machine,balance $400
Plus assembley if req $1000
Plus extras ???? $500
All done here conservatively for $ 11k
That combo in all equations is 450 ish flywheel.
Some pieces are cheaper from the States,750 DP Holley $550 US or $750 Aus.
The heads for example are only $80 ish cheaper from the states.
The stroker kit I was pricing that on in the USA is a Probe Industries crank wich it turns out is SCAT $1000.
Can get an Eagle stroker kit here for $1300.
All being said its a little bit cheaper from the states.
With this instance its all within about $1000 between here and there.
It all depends on what you want and how much homework and work your prepared to do yourself.
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Which ever way one goes I am a great believer in having it built here. Lets face it, if something goes wrong and warranty is back in the states....... well......... good luck. :smile:
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Luke don't forget the import tax once you go over $1000, its currently at 10% + there is some other BS fee.
But if i read it right it's going down to 5% from Jan 1, but no doubt there will be some other charge to get it back up.
Look up the Customs web site it;s hard to understand the fees table but you will work it out.
David.
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Oh yer they wont miss out old lad...
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Which ever way one goes I am a great believer in having it built here. Lets face it, if something goes wrong and warranty is back in the states....... well......... good luck. :smile:
:hesaid: + If you get it built by a specialist here and plan the build I doubt you will end up with a motor full of china parts.450 hp flywheel isn't really a lot.[for a chev anyway HE HEE]
my aed holley wasn't that expensive in AU
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Very big difference between different crate engines, particularly in power claims vs actual, lots of homework needed. Sadly, the last 3 engine builds I've been aware of in the last couple of years, cost more than budgeted, took a lot longer than expected/promised, had issues with the customer/builder relationship that lasted a long time after the build finally settled down.
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Very big difference between different crate engines, particularly in power claims vs actual, lots of homework needed. Sadly, the last 3 engine builds I've been aware of in the last couple of years, cost a more than budgeted, took a lot longer than expected/promised, had issues with the customer/builder relationship that lasted a long time after the build finally settled down.
who built you're engines ?
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Jack Roush.
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oh well his air filter cover looks good
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Yep, that's why people must buy them.................
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Jack Danials built my last one..........maybe that had something to do with it failing.......hic!
Anyway Luke its all in the prep work, but the yank donks use new blocks too.
Check out the mustang monthly mag.
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Agree with Hev (even the Jack Daniel's bit!). This month's Mustang Monthly with the orange Boss 429 on the cover has a really great article on building a stealth 331 stroker, very interesting reading. It suggests that the 331 size is optimum for reliability than longer strokes on a 289/302. More importantly, if you're looking to make compliance easier than there is an allowance/limit of up to 15% increase in capacity increase for minor owner modifications based on the biggest engine available in your year. So with a 1966, it's a 289, 15% increase is 332, may save some extra heartache trying to get compliance. Even if you don't care, your insurance may default if it doesn't comply and you have a stack that's your fault and they investigate. Here's an extract from vsi 15:
Examples of minor (owner certified) modifications are:
�� Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the
vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission
ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves,
oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate
correctly).
Just something to think about.
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Luke, check this out:
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8580
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Agree with Hev (even the Jack Daniel's bit!). This month's Mustang Monthly with the orange Boss 429 on the cover has a really great article on building a stealth 331 stroker, very interesting reading. It suggests that the 331 size is optimum for reliability than longer strokes on a 289/302. More importantly, if you're looking to make compliance easier than there is an allowance/limit of up to 15% increase in capacity increase for minor owner modifications based on the biggest engine available in your year. So with a 1966, it's a 289, 15% increase is 332, may save some extra heartache trying to get compliance. Even if you don't care, your insurance may default if it doesn't comply and you have a stack that's your fault and they investigate. Here's an extract from vsi 15:
Examples of minor (owner certified) modifications are:
�� Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the
vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission
ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves,
oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate
correctly).
Just something to think about.
That's what's so great about having a 455 as the standard engine, I can go to 523 cubic inches without any problems.
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Its all about preperation...and research.
Hense I couldnt go and buy bits like the one selling on MOCA,Although its financialy a good deal,as im sure its being sold as it is stated but I just wouldnt take the gamble.
Regarding previous builds Les,Even the best have blows,Look at HRT,SBR,888,Perkins...They have had issues with spankers on warm ups....Not engines we would ever have but they are big bikkie engines with the best engineering backing...
But you know what they say..
Amatuers built the Ark,Engineers the Titanic.
If you talk to enough people there isnt one shop or mechanic in Sydney that you wont get a bad report on,its just life.
If I where to go crate your mate Jack would get my coin,not too many others,again its not a gamble Id take with 3/4 of ebay for instance.
My purpose of the post was to show that the old USA and ebay isnt always as financialy viable as some would assume.
Again its all about research and prep.
Now to prep dinner for the fat kid..
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Agree with Hev (even the Jack Daniel's bit!). This month's Mustang Monthly with the orange Boss 429 on the cover has a really great article on building a stealth 331 stroker, very interesting reading. It suggests that the 331 size is optimum for reliability than longer strokes on a 289/302. More importantly, if you're looking to make compliance easier than there is an allowance/limit of up to 15% increase in capacity increase for minor owner modifications based on the biggest engine available in your year. So with a 1966, it's a 289, 15% increase is 332, may save some extra heartache trying to get compliance. Even if you don't care, your insurance may default if it doesn't comply and you have a stack that's your fault and they investigate. Here's an extract from vsi 15:
Examples of minor (owner certified) modifications are:
�� Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the
vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission
ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves,
oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate
correctly).
Just something to think about.
So les , in 67-68 the mustang came with a 390, so if you add 15% you can go to a 448 cube with no issues , is that correct?
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Yes! But also the 68 1/2 had a 428!
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Yes! But also the 68 1/2 had a 428!
MMMMMM 428 That has a nice sound to it:fantastic:
David.
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Agree with Hev (even the Jack Daniel's bit!). This month's Mustang Monthly with the orange Boss 429 on the cover has a really great article on building a stealth 331 stroker, very interesting reading. It suggests that the 331 size is optimum for reliability than longer strokes on a 289/302. More importantly, if you're looking to make compliance easier than there is an allowance/limit of up to 15% increase in capacity increase for minor owner modifications based on the biggest engine available in your year. So with a 1966, it's a 289, 15% increase is 332, may save some extra heartache trying to get compliance. Even if you don't care, your insurance may default if it doesn't comply and you have a stack that's your fault and they investigate. Here's an extract from vsi 15:
Examples of minor (owner certified) modifications are:
�� Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the
vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission
ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves,
oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate
correctly).
Just something to think about.
So les , in 67-68 the mustang came with a 390, so if you add 15% you can go to a 448 cube with no issues , is that correct?
From memeory the FE will go out to 505 CI
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DO IT!!!!!! 505 sounds good!
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Its not what you got, its how you use it.
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O.K.....I could not help not to join this debate....
So.... If you had a '70-'71 with a 429 i can make it into a whopping 555 cubes. How would you like that in your muzzy?
If you are wondering about legallity, the RTA guideline allows modification that may require engineers report.
There is a table in the Vehicle Standards Information Bulletin that i have a copy at work.
Some examples as follows:
If you own a mono constructed vehicle like your Mustang or most modern Mopars originally equipped with V8, take your tare weight from your rego paper and multiply by 0.294 and you will get the maximum engine capacity in cubic inches that you can fit.
If your Muzzy weigh 1600 kg that means you can have a 470 cube engine.
If your vehicle is a separate chassis construction the number to multiply by is 0.333
My El Camino weigh 2010 kg which means i can fit a 670 cube big block....
Eat your heart out boys!!!! :smile:
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832 cubic inches for me on that basis.:fantastic:
But what sort of milage would it get?:huh:
It would be more like yardage.
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there is no such thing as a cheap motor,for a start how much is a good set of arais pistons,probably about half the price of a create engine.Why don't sprintcars run create motors.Find a bloke who truly builds race motors and wins meetings regularly and then talk $$$ builds.
Aussie builders are the best but you won't get a decent motor built for 10k ,crap import engines are sending our builders out the door with there cheap prices but you get what you pay for.Dyno figures might look good but how long can the engine take it,
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Depends who you talk and how much of the BS on internet forums you believe.
Remembering 400 was pretty good figures 15 yrs ago with a 308 stroked and cast heads,and a 302 with a set of clevo heads and some attention to detail,and running points,wiht a re-graphed dizzy FFS.
You dont need to spend 25k on an engine like a sprint car engine for a street car surely,there are different reasons for spenfing coin on a sprint car engine,mainly being held at 6 grand for 12 laps usually requires a bit more quality then a street car that gets driven "hard" occasionally.
As for the cheap prices again ring around as you suggest and find out where the cheap sh*t is..Like I said earlier there is only a limited number of suppliers with many running under different names.
I was keen to run a Probe Industries crank assembley,Id heard good reports with them married to Probe pistons,I kept hearing Probe do pistons not cranks,some more digging found a probe crank assembley,a bit more digging sure enough probe dont do cranks they use scat cranks..
Probe pistons are well known.
This assembley was being sold out of Coast High Performance in Cal,as a Probe Indistries stroker Kit,with probe pistons,A bit more digging finds that Coast High is part of Probe,web sites almost identical and a they are SCAT sellers..an email confirmed that they use SCAT cranks and re badge them.
As for making phone calls and my reason for not running SCAT my work mates uncle runs a 9 second Torana and a 9 second Porsche and has been running cars and doing machine work on engines for over 30 yrs says he would never run a SCAT they simply require too much removal for balancing.
There are plenty of shops who recommend SCAT,It all comes down to personal choice.
He still says the old stuff is still really good & his prefered,just like getting hens teeth though.
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Just my view, I don't think 10K for an engine in a street car is cheap at all.
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The bottom line is what do you want?
How much $$$ do you have to spend?
10K gets you a sports engine by a good builder using modified factory bits.
15K gets you a stroker crank sports engine and factory bits.
20K gets you a stroker with alloy heads and factory bits
25+K gets you a stroker with alloy heads and all the go fast bits.
Where do you stop?
Although I like the sound of the crate engine thingy the warranty issue is always prevalent.
Have it built by an Aussie builder and keep the engineering skills Aussie!
You got good builders here but we all think its just buy the parts and bolt them together and it should work..RIGHT?....Try buying all the bits for a computer and bolting it together and see how it works, its not that easy, it needs fine tuning and as we all agree PREPARATION and that = Time and time = money. How much do you get paid an hour and multiply that by say 24hrs to build a good donk =????
I know a few reputable builders but they charge money and most of us cant see the value, until it doesn't work, then we would have spend double.
Motor mechanics aren't engine re-conditioners . they are re-builders but not re-conditioners,
Reconditions are the blokes whom machine everything to the correct tolerance and fit.
Problem is we look to all the magazines and see brand name parts and the price and we expect to pay the same to the engine reconditioner and forget he needs to make a living too. So we to it ourselves and feel cheated when it goes pear shaped.
If you think about it you get what you pay for, you may be lucky buy you may not.
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10k is 10k in my book...In comparison to other ford motors 10k is cheap,Im not saying I have the 10k in the glove box rolling around either,If I was to go, H Beam rods,carrillo this,Girdle this,stud that,roller this,floating that,then there is 15 easily as Mr Hev has stated.
To rebuild a 302 with a bore,an ACL bearing set,ACL gasket set would be prob 4k being safe,with a new water pump,lifters. some hoses and remaining bog stock.
The refering build wasnt for a stocker.
Sitting the fords beside chev can make you cringe at the price diff sometimes.
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Id say Clevite bearings and felpro gaskets and and one piece rear main and and and a new timing cover,my 289 has nothing fancy and its got 224hp at the back wheels and revs nicely to 6.5k
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10k is 10k in my book...In comparison to other ford motors 10k is cheap,Im not saying I have the 10k in the glove box rolling around either,If I was to go, H Beam rods,carrillo this,Girdle this,stud that,roller this,floating that,then there is 15 easily as Mr Hev has stated.
To rebuild a 302 with a bore,an ACL bearing set,ACL gasket set would be prob 4k being safe,with a new water pump,lifters. some hoses and remaining bog stock.
The refering build wasnt for a stocker.
Sitting the fords beside chev can make you cringe at the price diff sometimes.
sprint car comparison wasn't good sorry,all I meant was that if you want a fast/worked motor 4k create motor will sound the part but dyno figures are not usually what's claimed and from what we have found they are usually poorly built.10K SHOULD get a decent engine that will last and like you said a stroker etc would be more.
I saw an add for a 383 chev putting out 550 hp for $3500 new.I don't believe for 1 it's possable
2 if it could how long would it last
we have already heard of the trouble cast pistons can cause. There is not dummy fitting up and measuring going on for the money.